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Jaya, Venerated Firemage + Chandra's Pyrohelix = 4 damage among two targets?

Does Infect count as damage?Does Master of the Wild Hunt deal damage multiple times?How would Master of the Wild Hunt be worded if it targeted multiple creatures?Triggered abilities: Whenever a creature deals damageHow should the “and/or” text of a card be interpreted?Can Guttersnipe hit Planeswalkers?Would Guttersnipe plus a cyphered card result in an infinite loop of damage?Conditions about returning Chandra's Phoenix in one's handDoes first strike damage occur before normal damage?If I simultaneously kill my opponent and deck myself at the same time, is the game drawn?

5

I have a Jaya, Venerated Firemage in play and cast Chandra's Pyrohelix, targetting two creatures.

Jaya's static ability reads:
If another red source you control would deal damage to a permanent or player, it deals that much damage plus 1 to that permanent or player instead.

Pyrohelix reads:
Chandra's Pyrohelix deals 2 damage divided as you choose among one or two targets.

Does this mean that the two targets both get dealt two damage, because 1 damage gets replaced by 1+1 damage, so Pyrohelix deals four damage in total?

magic-the-gathering

share|improve this question

edited 20 hours ago

Glorfindel

6,72612147

asked 21 hours ago

reatterreatter

3246

add a comment | 

5

I have a Jaya, Venerated Firemage in play and cast Chandra's Pyrohelix, targetting two creatures.

Jaya's static ability reads:
If another red source you control would deal damage to a permanent or player, it deals that much damage plus 1 to that permanent or player instead.

Pyrohelix reads:
Chandra's Pyrohelix deals 2 damage divided as you choose among one or two targets.

Does this mean that the two targets both get dealt two damage, because 1 damage gets replaced by 1+1 damage, so Pyrohelix deals four damage in total?

magic-the-gathering

share|improve this question

edited 20 hours ago

Glorfindel

6,72612147

asked 21 hours ago

reatterreatter

3246

add a comment | 

I have a Jaya, Venerated Firemage in play and cast Chandra's Pyrohelix, targetting two creatures.

Jaya's static ability reads:
If another red source you control would deal damage to a permanent or player, it deals that much damage plus 1 to that permanent or player instead.

Pyrohelix reads:
Chandra's Pyrohelix deals 2 damage divided as you choose among one or two targets.

Does this mean that the two targets both get dealt two damage, because 1 damage gets replaced by 1+1 damage, so Pyrohelix deals four damage in total?

magic-the-gathering

share|improve this question

edited 20 hours ago

Glorfindel

6,72612147

asked 21 hours ago

reatterreatter

3246

share|improve this question

edited 20 hours ago

Glorfindel

6,72612147

asked 21 hours ago

reatterreatter

3246

share|improve this question

edited 20 hours ago

Glorfindel

6,72612147

asked 21 hours ago

reatterreatter

3246

edited 20 hours ago

Glorfindel

6,72612147

edited 20 hours ago

Glorfindel

6,72612147

asked 21 hours ago

reatterreatter

3246

asked 21 hours ago

reatterreatter

3246

2 Answers
2

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oldest

votes

4

It would be four damage; this is indicated in the rulings below the card on Gatherer:

If damage dealt by a source you control is being divided or assigned among multiple permanents an opponent controls or among an opponent and one or more permanents they control simultaneously, divide the original amount before adding 1. For example, if you attack with a 5/5 red creature with trample and your opponent blocks with a 2/2 creature, you can assign 2 damage to the blocker and 3 damage to the defending player. These amounts are then modified to 3 and 4, respectively.

share|improve this answer

answered 20 hours ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

6,72612147

add a comment | 

3

Chandra's Pyrohelix will deal 4 damage total (2 to each target) because it's damage to each target is increased by 1.

While Jaya, Venerated Firemage has a ruling that supports this claim, I prefer the ruling on Pyromancer's Swath (which has a similar ability) for its brevity:

If damage is being dealt to multiple creatures and/or players at the same time, the damage being dealt to each one is increased

To explain why this is the ruling, the important thing is how Jaya's ability works. Jaya's ability, as indicated by the word "instead", is a replacement effect:

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen-they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event.

614.1a Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

So now, the question is, what is it replacing? The type of event Jaya is looking for is "another red source you control would deal damage to a permanent or player". Thus, when you cast a burn spell, Jaya is not replacing the total damage your spell deals, but rather the subtotal that it deals to each creature (or player or planeswalker).

The fact that Chandra's Pyrohelix divides its damage isn't relevant to the replacement effect. That choice happened when you cast the spell, creating a spell dealing 1 damage to each of two creatures. The replacement effect, meanwhile, is happening when the spell resolves. From the perspective of the replacement effect, there is no difference between Chandra's Pyrohelix (the way you are using it here) and Dual Shot.

share|improve this answer

edited 14 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

ZagsZags

8,30631968

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I would argue there is a difference between dual shot and chandra's pyrohelix. One deals 2 damage divided as you choose to up to 2 targets, the other one deals 1 damage to up to 2 targets. if you only have 1 target, chandra's pyrohelix would deal 3 damage to that target while dual shot would only deal 2 damage (with Jaya's ability). Also neither of them allow 4 damage to the same creature to be dealt
  
  – fireshark519
  16 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @fireshark519 I'm not claiming that they are equivalent spells. They are quite different when you cast them. I'm merely claiming that if you use Chandra's Pyrohelix in the way that is described in the question, it looks the same as Dual Shot at the point of resolution.
  
  – Zags
  14 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

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4

It would be four damage; this is indicated in the rulings below the card on Gatherer:

If damage dealt by a source you control is being divided or assigned among multiple permanents an opponent controls or among an opponent and one or more permanents they control simultaneously, divide the original amount before adding 1. For example, if you attack with a 5/5 red creature with trample and your opponent blocks with a 2/2 creature, you can assign 2 damage to the blocker and 3 damage to the defending player. These amounts are then modified to 3 and 4, respectively.

share|improve this answer

answered 20 hours ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

6,72612147

add a comment | 

4

It would be four damage; this is indicated in the rulings below the card on Gatherer:

If damage dealt by a source you control is being divided or assigned among multiple permanents an opponent controls or among an opponent and one or more permanents they control simultaneously, divide the original amount before adding 1. For example, if you attack with a 5/5 red creature with trample and your opponent blocks with a 2/2 creature, you can assign 2 damage to the blocker and 3 damage to the defending player. These amounts are then modified to 3 and 4, respectively.

share|improve this answer

answered 20 hours ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

6,72612147

add a comment | 

It would be four damage; this is indicated in the rulings below the card on Gatherer:

If damage dealt by a source you control is being divided or assigned among multiple permanents an opponent controls or among an opponent and one or more permanents they control simultaneously, divide the original amount before adding 1. For example, if you attack with a 5/5 red creature with trample and your opponent blocks with a 2/2 creature, you can assign 2 damage to the blocker and 3 damage to the defending player. These amounts are then modified to 3 and 4, respectively.

share|improve this answer

answered 20 hours ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

6,72612147

share|improve this answer

answered 20 hours ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

6,72612147

answered 20 hours ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

6,72612147

answered 20 hours ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

6,72612147

3

Chandra's Pyrohelix will deal 4 damage total (2 to each target) because it's damage to each target is increased by 1.

While Jaya, Venerated Firemage has a ruling that supports this claim, I prefer the ruling on Pyromancer's Swath (which has a similar ability) for its brevity:

If damage is being dealt to multiple creatures and/or players at the same time, the damage being dealt to each one is increased

To explain why this is the ruling, the important thing is how Jaya's ability works. Jaya's ability, as indicated by the word "instead", is a replacement effect:

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen-they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event.

614.1a Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

So now, the question is, what is it replacing? The type of event Jaya is looking for is "another red source you control would deal damage to a permanent or player". Thus, when you cast a burn spell, Jaya is not replacing the total damage your spell deals, but rather the subtotal that it deals to each creature (or player or planeswalker).

The fact that Chandra's Pyrohelix divides its damage isn't relevant to the replacement effect. That choice happened when you cast the spell, creating a spell dealing 1 damage to each of two creatures. The replacement effect, meanwhile, is happening when the spell resolves. From the perspective of the replacement effect, there is no difference between Chandra's Pyrohelix (the way you are using it here) and Dual Shot.

share|improve this answer

edited 14 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

ZagsZags

8,30631968

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I would argue there is a difference between dual shot and chandra's pyrohelix. One deals 2 damage divided as you choose to up to 2 targets, the other one deals 1 damage to up to 2 targets. if you only have 1 target, chandra's pyrohelix would deal 3 damage to that target while dual shot would only deal 2 damage (with Jaya's ability). Also neither of them allow 4 damage to the same creature to be dealt
  
  – fireshark519
  16 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @fireshark519 I'm not claiming that they are equivalent spells. They are quite different when you cast them. I'm merely claiming that if you use Chandra's Pyrohelix in the way that is described in the question, it looks the same as Dual Shot at the point of resolution.
  
  – Zags
  14 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

3

Chandra's Pyrohelix will deal 4 damage total (2 to each target) because it's damage to each target is increased by 1.

While Jaya, Venerated Firemage has a ruling that supports this claim, I prefer the ruling on Pyromancer's Swath (which has a similar ability) for its brevity:

If damage is being dealt to multiple creatures and/or players at the same time, the damage being dealt to each one is increased

To explain why this is the ruling, the important thing is how Jaya's ability works. Jaya's ability, as indicated by the word "instead", is a replacement effect:

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen-they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event.

614.1a Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

So now, the question is, what is it replacing? The type of event Jaya is looking for is "another red source you control would deal damage to a permanent or player". Thus, when you cast a burn spell, Jaya is not replacing the total damage your spell deals, but rather the subtotal that it deals to each creature (or player or planeswalker).

The fact that Chandra's Pyrohelix divides its damage isn't relevant to the replacement effect. That choice happened when you cast the spell, creating a spell dealing 1 damage to each of two creatures. The replacement effect, meanwhile, is happening when the spell resolves. From the perspective of the replacement effect, there is no difference between Chandra's Pyrohelix (the way you are using it here) and Dual Shot.

share|improve this answer

edited 14 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

ZagsZags

8,30631968

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I would argue there is a difference between dual shot and chandra's pyrohelix. One deals 2 damage divided as you choose to up to 2 targets, the other one deals 1 damage to up to 2 targets. if you only have 1 target, chandra's pyrohelix would deal 3 damage to that target while dual shot would only deal 2 damage (with Jaya's ability). Also neither of them allow 4 damage to the same creature to be dealt
  
  – fireshark519
  16 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @fireshark519 I'm not claiming that they are equivalent spells. They are quite different when you cast them. I'm merely claiming that if you use Chandra's Pyrohelix in the way that is described in the question, it looks the same as Dual Shot at the point of resolution.
  
  – Zags
  14 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

Chandra's Pyrohelix will deal 4 damage total (2 to each target) because it's damage to each target is increased by 1.

While Jaya, Venerated Firemage has a ruling that supports this claim, I prefer the ruling on Pyromancer's Swath (which has a similar ability) for its brevity:

If damage is being dealt to multiple creatures and/or players at the same time, the damage being dealt to each one is increased

To explain why this is the ruling, the important thing is how Jaya's ability works. Jaya's ability, as indicated by the word "instead", is a replacement effect:

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen-they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event.

614.1a Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

So now, the question is, what is it replacing? The type of event Jaya is looking for is "another red source you control would deal damage to a permanent or player". Thus, when you cast a burn spell, Jaya is not replacing the total damage your spell deals, but rather the subtotal that it deals to each creature (or player or planeswalker).

The fact that Chandra's Pyrohelix divides its damage isn't relevant to the replacement effect. That choice happened when you cast the spell, creating a spell dealing 1 damage to each of two creatures. The replacement effect, meanwhile, is happening when the spell resolves. From the perspective of the replacement effect, there is no difference between Chandra's Pyrohelix (the way you are using it here) and Dual Shot.

share|improve this answer

edited 14 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

ZagsZags

8,30631968

share|improve this answer

edited 14 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

ZagsZags

8,30631968

answered 17 hours ago

ZagsZags

8,30631968

answered 17 hours ago

ZagsZags

8,30631968