Sfdwhf

What was Apollo 13's "Little Jolt" after MECO?

Partitioning values in a sequence

Drawing a german abacus as in the books of Adam Ries

Should the Product Owner dictate what info the UI needs to display?

Is this a typo in Section 1.8.1 Mathematics for Computer Science?

Nails holding drywall

Can a Bard use the Spell Glyph option of the Glyph of Warding spell and cast a known spell into the glyph?

Negative Resistance

Find a stone which is not the lightest one

A strange hotel

Is there a word for the censored part of a video?

Extracting Dirichlet series coefficients

What makes accurate emulation of old systems a difficult task?

Co-worker works way more than he should

Israeli soda type drink

Combinatorics problem, right solution?

Creating a chemical industry from a medieval tech level without petroleum

How can I get rid of an unhelpful parallel branch when unpivoting a single row?

Why do games have consumables?

Rudin 2.10 (b) Example

Apply a different color ramp to subset of categorized symbols in QGIS?

How much of a wave function must reside inside event horizon for it to be consumed by the black hole?

What is purpose of DB Browser(dbbrowser.aspx) under admin tool?

Can someone publish a story that happened to you?

Long vowel quality before R

Listening practice for long vs. short vowelsPronunciation of long eLength of vowels before ‘ss’ in Swiss standard GermanIs the vowel 'r' not pronounced?Kinds of German rounded front vowelHow do I pronounce the letter “r” after a vowel?How to distinguish between long ä and short äShould the vowel also become a bit more open before consonant cluster by conjugation?Cornelsen - Why pronounced with long “e”Da-preposition Words Before Dependent Clauses

5

1

I study in Berlin and I've noticed that long vowels preceding an R have a very different quality. In specific, they are consistently more open, sometimes mixing with their "short vowel" equivalent.
For example, the starting vowel of the diphthongs in:

Wer ([ve̞ɐ] or even [vɛɐ]), der (de̞ɐ, can go as low as [dɐ]!), Leer

doesn't sound at all like the vowel in

Tee [tʰe:], Bete [be:tə]

Same can be said for the other vowels, but "e" and "o" seem to be affected the most.

Is this considered standard German? Has anyone written anything about it (I love reading books about phonology/phonetics)
Here is a 4 seconds recording of Helmut Krauss on Audible:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=14oobrQXIRCIQmyv4GnR7MNj0wQyRB4zJ

In Northern Germany, the R is pronounced as a gliding ɐ even after short vowels. Can we say that in Northern Germany there is no contrast between short and long vowels before R?

pronunciation standard-german northern-german vowel-length

share|improve this question

asked 20 hours ago

Yordan GrigorovYordan Grigorov

1377

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I really like your sentence "I love reading books about phonology/phonetics". Роздрави, впрочем.
  
  – Christian Geiselmann
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Herr and Heer are certainly pronounced differently.
  
  – Carsten S
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

5

1

I study in Berlin and I've noticed that long vowels preceding an R have a very different quality. In specific, they are consistently more open, sometimes mixing with their "short vowel" equivalent.
For example, the starting vowel of the diphthongs in:

Wer ([ve̞ɐ] or even [vɛɐ]), der (de̞ɐ, can go as low as [dɐ]!), Leer

doesn't sound at all like the vowel in

Tee [tʰe:], Bete [be:tə]

Same can be said for the other vowels, but "e" and "o" seem to be affected the most.

Is this considered standard German? Has anyone written anything about it (I love reading books about phonology/phonetics)
Here is a 4 seconds recording of Helmut Krauss on Audible:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=14oobrQXIRCIQmyv4GnR7MNj0wQyRB4zJ

In Northern Germany, the R is pronounced as a gliding ɐ even after short vowels. Can we say that in Northern Germany there is no contrast between short and long vowels before R?

pronunciation standard-german northern-german vowel-length

share|improve this question

asked 20 hours ago

Yordan GrigorovYordan Grigorov

1377

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I really like your sentence "I love reading books about phonology/phonetics". Роздрави, впрочем.
  
  – Christian Geiselmann
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Herr and Heer are certainly pronounced differently.
  
  – Carsten S
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

I study in Berlin and I've noticed that long vowels preceding an R have a very different quality. In specific, they are consistently more open, sometimes mixing with their "short vowel" equivalent.
For example, the starting vowel of the diphthongs in:

Wer ([ve̞ɐ] or even [vɛɐ]), der (de̞ɐ, can go as low as [dɐ]!), Leer

doesn't sound at all like the vowel in

Tee [tʰe:], Bete [be:tə]

Same can be said for the other vowels, but "e" and "o" seem to be affected the most.

Is this considered standard German? Has anyone written anything about it (I love reading books about phonology/phonetics)
Here is a 4 seconds recording of Helmut Krauss on Audible:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=14oobrQXIRCIQmyv4GnR7MNj0wQyRB4zJ

In Northern Germany, the R is pronounced as a gliding ɐ even after short vowels. Can we say that in Northern Germany there is no contrast between short and long vowels before R?

pronunciation standard-german northern-german vowel-length

share|improve this question

asked 20 hours ago

Yordan GrigorovYordan Grigorov

1377

share|improve this question

asked 20 hours ago

Yordan GrigorovYordan Grigorov

1377

share|improve this question

asked 20 hours ago

Yordan GrigorovYordan Grigorov

1377

asked 20 hours ago

Yordan GrigorovYordan Grigorov

1377

asked 20 hours ago

Yordan GrigorovYordan Grigorov

1377

1 Answer
1

active

oldest

votes

6

I'm inclined to answer negatively as far as Standard German is concerned. I know you mentioned Northern Germany, but then again your recording is definitely Standard German.

German vowel contrasts combine length and tenseness: [i: ɪ] [y: ʏ] [u: ʊ] [o: ɔ] and finally [e: ɛ], [ø: œ].*

Closed tensed long [e:] and open untensed short [ɛ] are clearly distinct, even if [ɐ] follows: lehrt, kehrt, mehrt, sehr, entbehrt – lernt, merkt, nervt, bergt. They remain fully distinct even when [e:] is shortened, for instance when it is prosodically unstressed (e.g. sie lehrt jetzt in TÜbingen).

Some words such as der, wir, ein have weak forms. So if you point to the word and ask someone to pronounce it they will say [de:ɐ̯ vi:ɐ̯ aɪ̯n] but in a sentence, they might be realised as [deɐ̯] > [dɛɐ̯] > [dɐ], [viɐ̯] > [vɪɐ̯] > [vɐ], [n]. This is completely normal and part of Standard German. However, these sort of reductions are not accepted for words such as leer, sehr, etc.

Caveat: Lack of stress and speed of articulation will automatically lead to tensed vowels such as [e] being realised as less tense, i.e. they will become more open. But even then, the minimal pairs mentioned in the paragraph above should remain distinct. (Also note that nothing I have said strictly precludes that R realised as [ɐ] does have an influence on the preceding vowel.)

*_{Note that the situation for e-like vowels is more complicated than for the others, because [ɛ:] also exists, but not for all speakers.}

share|improve this answer

edited 17 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

David VogtDavid Vogt

5,7121332

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].
  
  – Yordan Grigorov
  18 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].
  
  – Yordan Grigorov
  18 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tor – torkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)
  
  – David Vogt
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  "so geben is clearly an exception." - so do you think "gibt" pronounced as "gibbt" sounds OK?
  
  – Yordan Grigorov
  11 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Oh, definitely!
  
  – David Vogt
  11 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 3 more comments

Your Answer

StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "253"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});

draft saved

draft discarded

Sign up or log in

StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});

Sign up using Google

Sign up using Facebook

Sign up using Email and Password

Post as a guest

Name

Email

Required, but never shown

StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fgerman.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f51886%2flong-vowel-quality-before-r%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest

Name

Email

Required, but never shown

6

I'm inclined to answer negatively as far as Standard German is concerned. I know you mentioned Northern Germany, but then again your recording is definitely Standard German.

German vowel contrasts combine length and tenseness: [i: ɪ] [y: ʏ] [u: ʊ] [o: ɔ] and finally [e: ɛ], [ø: œ].*

Closed tensed long [e:] and open untensed short [ɛ] are clearly distinct, even if [ɐ] follows: lehrt, kehrt, mehrt, sehr, entbehrt – lernt, merkt, nervt, bergt. They remain fully distinct even when [e:] is shortened, for instance when it is prosodically unstressed (e.g. sie lehrt jetzt in TÜbingen).

Some words such as der, wir, ein have weak forms. So if you point to the word and ask someone to pronounce it they will say [de:ɐ̯ vi:ɐ̯ aɪ̯n] but in a sentence, they might be realised as [deɐ̯] > [dɛɐ̯] > [dɐ], [viɐ̯] > [vɪɐ̯] > [vɐ], [n]. This is completely normal and part of Standard German. However, these sort of reductions are not accepted for words such as leer, sehr, etc.

Caveat: Lack of stress and speed of articulation will automatically lead to tensed vowels such as [e] being realised as less tense, i.e. they will become more open. But even then, the minimal pairs mentioned in the paragraph above should remain distinct. (Also note that nothing I have said strictly precludes that R realised as [ɐ] does have an influence on the preceding vowel.)

*_{Note that the situation for e-like vowels is more complicated than for the others, because [ɛ:] also exists, but not for all speakers.}

share|improve this answer

edited 17 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

David VogtDavid Vogt

5,7121332

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].
  
  – Yordan Grigorov
  18 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].
  
  – Yordan Grigorov
  18 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tor – torkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)
  
  – David Vogt
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  "so geben is clearly an exception." - so do you think "gibt" pronounced as "gibbt" sounds OK?
  
  – Yordan Grigorov
  11 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Oh, definitely!
  
  – David Vogt
  11 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 3 more comments

6

I'm inclined to answer negatively as far as Standard German is concerned. I know you mentioned Northern Germany, but then again your recording is definitely Standard German.

German vowel contrasts combine length and tenseness: [i: ɪ] [y: ʏ] [u: ʊ] [o: ɔ] and finally [e: ɛ], [ø: œ].*

Closed tensed long [e:] and open untensed short [ɛ] are clearly distinct, even if [ɐ] follows: lehrt, kehrt, mehrt, sehr, entbehrt – lernt, merkt, nervt, bergt. They remain fully distinct even when [e:] is shortened, for instance when it is prosodically unstressed (e.g. sie lehrt jetzt in TÜbingen).

Some words such as der, wir, ein have weak forms. So if you point to the word and ask someone to pronounce it they will say [de:ɐ̯ vi:ɐ̯ aɪ̯n] but in a sentence, they might be realised as [deɐ̯] > [dɛɐ̯] > [dɐ], [viɐ̯] > [vɪɐ̯] > [vɐ], [n]. This is completely normal and part of Standard German. However, these sort of reductions are not accepted for words such as leer, sehr, etc.

Caveat: Lack of stress and speed of articulation will automatically lead to tensed vowels such as [e] being realised as less tense, i.e. they will become more open. But even then, the minimal pairs mentioned in the paragraph above should remain distinct. (Also note that nothing I have said strictly precludes that R realised as [ɐ] does have an influence on the preceding vowel.)

*_{Note that the situation for e-like vowels is more complicated than for the others, because [ɛ:] also exists, but not for all speakers.}

share|improve this answer

edited 17 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

David VogtDavid Vogt

5,7121332

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].
  
  – Yordan Grigorov
  18 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].
  
  – Yordan Grigorov
  18 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tor – torkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)
  
  – David Vogt
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  "so geben is clearly an exception." - so do you think "gibt" pronounced as "gibbt" sounds OK?
  
  – Yordan Grigorov
  11 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Oh, definitely!
  
  – David Vogt
  11 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 3 more comments

I'm inclined to answer negatively as far as Standard German is concerned. I know you mentioned Northern Germany, but then again your recording is definitely Standard German.

German vowel contrasts combine length and tenseness: [i: ɪ] [y: ʏ] [u: ʊ] [o: ɔ] and finally [e: ɛ], [ø: œ].*

Closed tensed long [e:] and open untensed short [ɛ] are clearly distinct, even if [ɐ] follows: lehrt, kehrt, mehrt, sehr, entbehrt – lernt, merkt, nervt, bergt. They remain fully distinct even when [e:] is shortened, for instance when it is prosodically unstressed (e.g. sie lehrt jetzt in TÜbingen).

Some words such as der, wir, ein have weak forms. So if you point to the word and ask someone to pronounce it they will say [de:ɐ̯ vi:ɐ̯ aɪ̯n] but in a sentence, they might be realised as [deɐ̯] > [dɛɐ̯] > [dɐ], [viɐ̯] > [vɪɐ̯] > [vɐ], [n]. This is completely normal and part of Standard German. However, these sort of reductions are not accepted for words such as leer, sehr, etc.

Caveat: Lack of stress and speed of articulation will automatically lead to tensed vowels such as [e] being realised as less tense, i.e. they will become more open. But even then, the minimal pairs mentioned in the paragraph above should remain distinct. (Also note that nothing I have said strictly precludes that R realised as [ɐ] does have an influence on the preceding vowel.)

*_{Note that the situation for e-like vowels is more complicated than for the others, because [ɛ:] also exists, but not for all speakers.}

share|improve this answer

edited 17 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

David VogtDavid Vogt

5,7121332

share|improve this answer

edited 17 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

David VogtDavid Vogt

5,7121332

answered 18 hours ago

David VogtDavid Vogt

5,7121332

answered 18 hours ago

David VogtDavid Vogt

5,7121332