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How to pronounce the unstressed е in прише́дшие?

“Изображён” but “обезобра́жен” - why do stresses in these word differ?Is it bad if I don't bother to pronounce 'o' correctly?Inconsistencies books pronunciationSoft vowel pronounciation at the end of a wordPronunciation of “шь”Should there be a detectable difference in pronunciation between masculine animate plural nominative nouns whose plural accusative ends in “ей?”“Критический”: How should it be prounounced?Where does the sound “йи” / iotated и / [ji] occur in Russian?Pronunciation of “й” in adjective endingsPronouncing the letter “е”

2

Wikipedia says:

• ...


• /e/ has merged with /i/ (or /i/ and /ɨ/ if /ɨ/ is considered a phoneme): for instance, лиса́ (lisá) 'fox' and леса́ 'forests' are both pronounced /lʲiˈsa/, phonetically About this sound[lʲɪˈsa].


• ...

So I expected прише́дшие to sound like [priʃjedʃii], not [priʃjedʃije]. In other words, the sound of the unstressed e here should boil from [je] to [i] as per the rule above. Yet, many singers (in fact, this is from the song called Журавли) actually don't pronounce that way; I hear [e] at the end of the word. Can you explain why?

произношение ударение фонетика vowel-reduction

share|improve this question

edited 16 hours ago

b1sub

asked 18 hours ago

b1subb1sub

1134

New contributor

b1sub is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  With the last syllable being stressed it looks like 1) a noun 2) borrowed from a foreign language, probably French.
  
  – Arhad
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  teasing out pronunciation from songs is not the most reliable method, because singers tend to enunciate phonemes more clearly which defaults to the way they are written, especially singers from the Soviet era who generally had formal education as vocalists
  
  – Баян Купи-ка
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

2

Wikipedia says:

• ...


• /e/ has merged with /i/ (or /i/ and /ɨ/ if /ɨ/ is considered a phoneme): for instance, лиса́ (lisá) 'fox' and леса́ 'forests' are both pronounced /lʲiˈsa/, phonetically About this sound[lʲɪˈsa].


• ...

So I expected прише́дшие to sound like [priʃjedʃii], not [priʃjedʃije]. In other words, the sound of the unstressed e here should boil from [je] to [i] as per the rule above. Yet, many singers (in fact, this is from the song called Журавли) actually don't pronounce that way; I hear [e] at the end of the word. Can you explain why?

произношение ударение фонетика vowel-reduction

share|improve this question

edited 16 hours ago

b1sub

asked 18 hours ago

b1subb1sub

1134

New contributor

b1sub is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  With the last syllable being stressed it looks like 1) a noun 2) borrowed from a foreign language, probably French.
  
  – Arhad
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  teasing out pronunciation from songs is not the most reliable method, because singers tend to enunciate phonemes more clearly which defaults to the way they are written, especially singers from the Soviet era who generally had formal education as vocalists
  
  – Баян Купи-ка
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

Wikipedia says:

• ...


• /e/ has merged with /i/ (or /i/ and /ɨ/ if /ɨ/ is considered a phoneme): for instance, лиса́ (lisá) 'fox' and леса́ 'forests' are both pronounced /lʲiˈsa/, phonetically About this sound[lʲɪˈsa].


• ...

So I expected прише́дшие to sound like [priʃjedʃii], not [priʃjedʃije]. In other words, the sound of the unstressed e here should boil from [je] to [i] as per the rule above. Yet, many singers (in fact, this is from the song called Журавли) actually don't pronounce that way; I hear [e] at the end of the word. Can you explain why?

произношение ударение фонетика vowel-reduction

share|improve this question

edited 16 hours ago

b1sub

asked 18 hours ago

b1subb1sub

1134

New contributor

b1sub is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

share|improve this question

edited 16 hours ago

b1sub

asked 18 hours ago

b1subb1sub

1134

New contributor

b1sub is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

share|improve this question

edited 16 hours ago

b1sub

asked 18 hours ago

b1subb1sub

1134

New contributor

b1sub is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

asked 18 hours ago

b1subb1sub

1134

New contributor

b1sub is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

asked 18 hours ago

b1subb1sub

1134

2 Answers
2

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2

Your expectation is justified, in speech прише́дшие is indeed pronounced like [priʃjedʃii], the final [е] gets reduced, пришеччыи

The transcription [priʃjedʃije] is also wrong about pronunсiation of [д] which here merges with [ш] to form geminated hard [чч] or is assimilated to form a combination [чш] and thus is essentially not pronounced.

Произношение окончания именительного падежа множественного числа
прилагательных и причастий. В этой форме орфографические
окончания прилагательных и причастий -ые, -ие по старомосковской норме произносятся как [ыи], [ии]: кра′сн[ыи] (красные), но′в[ыи] (новые), си′н[ии] (синие), раскры′т[ыи] (раскрытые), чита′ющ[ии] (читающие). Вариантной нормой современного русского литературного языка является произношение орфографических сочетаний -ые, -ие как [ииь], [ыиь]:
кра′сн[ыиь] (красные), но′в[ыиь] (новые), си′н[ииь] (синие), раскры′т[ыиь] (раскрытые), чита′ющ[ииь] (читающие).

^{Мусатов В.Н. — «Русский язык. Фонетика. Фонология. Орфоэпия. Графика. Орфография», p. 175}

В сочетаниях тш, дш на месте букв т и д в беглой речи
произносится звук [т] с некоторым фрикативным шипящим элементом, т. е. по существу твердая аффриката [ч]: приве′[чш]ый (приведший),
обве[чш]а′лый, мла′[чш]ий, по[чш]у′бой.

^{Аванесов - «Русское литературное произношение», p. 188}

---

Video examples of pronunciation from Russian National Corpus' multimedia database where difference between speech and singing is apparent in particular.

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

Баян Купи-каБаян Купи-ка

16k11439

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Thanks for the clarification! Also, that germination rule is interesting. =) I should dig it further.
  
  – b1sub
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  6
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I think it depends on the speaker's region of origin. [пришеччыи] sounds very unusual to me. My own pronunciation is similar to [пришэтшиэ].
  
  – Abakan
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  true, since [e] is reduced into something amorphous i guess it's difficult to pinpoint how the resulting vowel exactly sounds, it could once sound closer to [ы] and then more like [э] the next time around with the same person
  
  – Баян Купи-ка
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I assume the latter part(=germination) is Russian-specific, but I see none in Wikipedia's Russian Phonology page. Is there any link that you can cite or quote about that topic?
  
  – b1sub
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I've never seen a book that says it geminates to чч—They all say (aside from your reference) that it becomes тш—Russian and English sources. As a personal aside, the researcher that you referenced isn't considered to be the most accurate. There are much better reference works now.
  
  – VCH250
  8 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 2 more comments

0

You don't have to mind the original formal rules of pronunciation. Different regions or groups may have pronunciation specific to them. But they are still accepted, meaning that there is some range of pronunciations which are widely accepted regardless of the officially accepted one. That's right, if you pronounce it as "e", the word would be perfectly recognized as "correct" (also, you may intentionally pronounce it non-oficcially so that it would not sound similar to an almost same sounding word), albeit with the sense of "dialect" or something similar.

share|improve this answer

answered 12 hours ago

Just a linguistJust a linguist

111

New contributor

Just a linguist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

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2

Your expectation is justified, in speech прише́дшие is indeed pronounced like [priʃjedʃii], the final [е] gets reduced, пришеччыи

The transcription [priʃjedʃije] is also wrong about pronunсiation of [д] which here merges with [ш] to form geminated hard [чч] or is assimilated to form a combination [чш] and thus is essentially not pronounced.

Произношение окончания именительного падежа множественного числа
прилагательных и причастий. В этой форме орфографические
окончания прилагательных и причастий -ые, -ие по старомосковской норме произносятся как [ыи], [ии]: кра′сн[ыи] (красные), но′в[ыи] (новые), си′н[ии] (синие), раскры′т[ыи] (раскрытые), чита′ющ[ии] (читающие). Вариантной нормой современного русского литературного языка является произношение орфографических сочетаний -ые, -ие как [ииь], [ыиь]:
кра′сн[ыиь] (красные), но′в[ыиь] (новые), си′н[ииь] (синие), раскры′т[ыиь] (раскрытые), чита′ющ[ииь] (читающие).

^{Мусатов В.Н. — «Русский язык. Фонетика. Фонология. Орфоэпия. Графика. Орфография», p. 175}

В сочетаниях тш, дш на месте букв т и д в беглой речи
произносится звук [т] с некоторым фрикативным шипящим элементом, т. е. по существу твердая аффриката [ч]: приве′[чш]ый (приведший),
обве[чш]а′лый, мла′[чш]ий, по[чш]у′бой.

^{Аванесов - «Русское литературное произношение», p. 188}

---

Video examples of pronunciation from Russian National Corpus' multimedia database where difference between speech and singing is apparent in particular.

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

Баян Купи-каБаян Купи-ка

16k11439

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Thanks for the clarification! Also, that germination rule is interesting. =) I should dig it further.
  
  – b1sub
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  6
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I think it depends on the speaker's region of origin. [пришеччыи] sounds very unusual to me. My own pronunciation is similar to [пришэтшиэ].
  
  – Abakan
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  true, since [e] is reduced into something amorphous i guess it's difficult to pinpoint how the resulting vowel exactly sounds, it could once sound closer to [ы] and then more like [э] the next time around with the same person
  
  – Баян Купи-ка
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I assume the latter part(=germination) is Russian-specific, but I see none in Wikipedia's Russian Phonology page. Is there any link that you can cite or quote about that topic?
  
  – b1sub
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I've never seen a book that says it geminates to чч—They all say (aside from your reference) that it becomes тш—Russian and English sources. As a personal aside, the researcher that you referenced isn't considered to be the most accurate. There are much better reference works now.
  
  – VCH250
  8 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 2 more comments

2

Your expectation is justified, in speech прише́дшие is indeed pronounced like [priʃjedʃii], the final [е] gets reduced, пришеччыи

The transcription [priʃjedʃije] is also wrong about pronunсiation of [д] which here merges with [ш] to form geminated hard [чч] or is assimilated to form a combination [чш] and thus is essentially not pronounced.

Произношение окончания именительного падежа множественного числа
прилагательных и причастий. В этой форме орфографические
окончания прилагательных и причастий -ые, -ие по старомосковской норме произносятся как [ыи], [ии]: кра′сн[ыи] (красные), но′в[ыи] (новые), си′н[ии] (синие), раскры′т[ыи] (раскрытые), чита′ющ[ии] (читающие). Вариантной нормой современного русского литературного языка является произношение орфографических сочетаний -ые, -ие как [ииь], [ыиь]:
кра′сн[ыиь] (красные), но′в[ыиь] (новые), си′н[ииь] (синие), раскры′т[ыиь] (раскрытые), чита′ющ[ииь] (читающие).

^{Мусатов В.Н. — «Русский язык. Фонетика. Фонология. Орфоэпия. Графика. Орфография», p. 175}

В сочетаниях тш, дш на месте букв т и д в беглой речи
произносится звук [т] с некоторым фрикативным шипящим элементом, т. е. по существу твердая аффриката [ч]: приве′[чш]ый (приведший),
обве[чш]а′лый, мла′[чш]ий, по[чш]у′бой.

^{Аванесов - «Русское литературное произношение», p. 188}

---

Video examples of pronunciation from Russian National Corpus' multimedia database where difference between speech and singing is apparent in particular.

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

Баян Купи-каБаян Купи-ка

16k11439

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Thanks for the clarification! Also, that germination rule is interesting. =) I should dig it further.
  
  – b1sub
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  6
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I think it depends on the speaker's region of origin. [пришеччыи] sounds very unusual to me. My own pronunciation is similar to [пришэтшиэ].
  
  – Abakan
  17 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  true, since [e] is reduced into something amorphous i guess it's difficult to pinpoint how the resulting vowel exactly sounds, it could once sound closer to [ы] and then more like [э] the next time around with the same person
  
  – Баян Купи-ка
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I assume the latter part(=germination) is Russian-specific, but I see none in Wikipedia's Russian Phonology page. Is there any link that you can cite or quote about that topic?
  
  – b1sub
  17 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I've never seen a book that says it geminates to чч—They all say (aside from your reference) that it becomes тш—Russian and English sources. As a personal aside, the researcher that you referenced isn't considered to be the most accurate. There are much better reference works now.
  
  – VCH250
  8 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 2 more comments

Your expectation is justified, in speech прише́дшие is indeed pronounced like [priʃjedʃii], the final [е] gets reduced, пришеччыи

The transcription [priʃjedʃije] is also wrong about pronunсiation of [д] which here merges with [ш] to form geminated hard [чч] or is assimilated to form a combination [чш] and thus is essentially not pronounced.

Произношение окончания именительного падежа множественного числа
прилагательных и причастий. В этой форме орфографические
окончания прилагательных и причастий -ые, -ие по старомосковской норме произносятся как [ыи], [ии]: кра′сн[ыи] (красные), но′в[ыи] (новые), си′н[ии] (синие), раскры′т[ыи] (раскрытые), чита′ющ[ии] (читающие). Вариантной нормой современного русского литературного языка является произношение орфографических сочетаний -ые, -ие как [ииь], [ыиь]:
кра′сн[ыиь] (красные), но′в[ыиь] (новые), си′н[ииь] (синие), раскры′т[ыиь] (раскрытые), чита′ющ[ииь] (читающие).

^{Мусатов В.Н. — «Русский язык. Фонетика. Фонология. Орфоэпия. Графика. Орфография», p. 175}

В сочетаниях тш, дш на месте букв т и д в беглой речи
произносится звук [т] с некоторым фрикативным шипящим элементом, т. е. по существу твердая аффриката [ч]: приве′[чш]ый (приведший),
обве[чш]а′лый, мла′[чш]ий, по[чш]у′бой.

^{Аванесов - «Русское литературное произношение», p. 188}

---

Video examples of pronunciation from Russian National Corpus' multimedia database where difference between speech and singing is apparent in particular.

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

Баян Купи-каБаян Купи-ка

16k11439

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 17 hours ago

Баян Купи-каБаян Купи-ка

16k11439

answered 17 hours ago

Баян Купи-каБаян Купи-ка

16k11439

answered 17 hours ago

Баян Купи-каБаян Купи-ка

16k11439

0

You don't have to mind the original formal rules of pronunciation. Different regions or groups may have pronunciation specific to them. But they are still accepted, meaning that there is some range of pronunciations which are widely accepted regardless of the officially accepted one. That's right, if you pronounce it as "e", the word would be perfectly recognized as "correct" (also, you may intentionally pronounce it non-oficcially so that it would not sound similar to an almost same sounding word), albeit with the sense of "dialect" or something similar.

share|improve this answer

answered 12 hours ago

Just a linguistJust a linguist

111

New contributor

Just a linguist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

add a comment | 

0

You don't have to mind the original formal rules of pronunciation. Different regions or groups may have pronunciation specific to them. But they are still accepted, meaning that there is some range of pronunciations which are widely accepted regardless of the officially accepted one. That's right, if you pronounce it as "e", the word would be perfectly recognized as "correct" (also, you may intentionally pronounce it non-oficcially so that it would not sound similar to an almost same sounding word), albeit with the sense of "dialect" or something similar.

share|improve this answer

answered 12 hours ago

Just a linguistJust a linguist

111

New contributor

Just a linguist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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You don't have to mind the original formal rules of pronunciation. Different regions or groups may have pronunciation specific to them. But they are still accepted, meaning that there is some range of pronunciations which are widely accepted regardless of the officially accepted one. That's right, if you pronounce it as "e", the word would be perfectly recognized as "correct" (also, you may intentionally pronounce it non-oficcially so that it would not sound similar to an almost same sounding word), albeit with the sense of "dialect" or something similar.

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answered 12 hours ago

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answered 12 hours ago

Just a linguistJust a linguist

111

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Just a linguist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

answered 12 hours ago

Just a linguistJust a linguist

111

New contributor

Just a linguist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

answered 12 hours ago

Just a linguistJust a linguist

111