Is a self contained air-bullet cartridge feasible? Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast? ...

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Is a self contained air-bullet cartridge feasible?



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4












$begingroup$


In my world, there is no access to modern or traditional gunpowder. I was wondering if a dedicated technician with a modern shop (cnc machines, and a surplus of parts and raw material, etc) would be able to develop a bullet the fires from compressed air that is in the same cartridge as the projectile. Issues I am not sure of are: How big would the cartridge have to be to push a 30 caliber bullet at lethal trajectory? and how thick would the air chamber have to be to hold that pressure?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    what is the difference between this and an air-rifle? Those can kill and it is easier to pump air into a big container than tiny cartridge
    $endgroup$
    – aaaaaa
    11 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You would never have to pump your gun if you left with enough bullets. I find that an air rifles biggest weakness is the limited amount of shots they can fire. So if there is a large fight where the mechanic I described has to fight more then ten enemies, he would be able to without having to retreat and pull out a bicycle pump to charge up.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Air rifles are usually charged by breaking and closing again. This bratty kid shows you how - youtu.be/AI2b5n4nkCg - Two or three pumps are usually more than enough. No bicycle equipment needed. Are your self-contained bullets loaded individually or is this an automatic weapon?
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    11 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    I am imagining full auto from a magazine type feeding system that uses the excess air from the cartridges the same way the gunpowder gases are used to cycle in modern powder guns.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    11 hours ago


















4












$begingroup$


In my world, there is no access to modern or traditional gunpowder. I was wondering if a dedicated technician with a modern shop (cnc machines, and a surplus of parts and raw material, etc) would be able to develop a bullet the fires from compressed air that is in the same cartridge as the projectile. Issues I am not sure of are: How big would the cartridge have to be to push a 30 caliber bullet at lethal trajectory? and how thick would the air chamber have to be to hold that pressure?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    what is the difference between this and an air-rifle? Those can kill and it is easier to pump air into a big container than tiny cartridge
    $endgroup$
    – aaaaaa
    11 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You would never have to pump your gun if you left with enough bullets. I find that an air rifles biggest weakness is the limited amount of shots they can fire. So if there is a large fight where the mechanic I described has to fight more then ten enemies, he would be able to without having to retreat and pull out a bicycle pump to charge up.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Air rifles are usually charged by breaking and closing again. This bratty kid shows you how - youtu.be/AI2b5n4nkCg - Two or three pumps are usually more than enough. No bicycle equipment needed. Are your self-contained bullets loaded individually or is this an automatic weapon?
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    11 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    I am imagining full auto from a magazine type feeding system that uses the excess air from the cartridges the same way the gunpowder gases are used to cycle in modern powder guns.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    11 hours ago
















4












4








4


1



$begingroup$


In my world, there is no access to modern or traditional gunpowder. I was wondering if a dedicated technician with a modern shop (cnc machines, and a surplus of parts and raw material, etc) would be able to develop a bullet the fires from compressed air that is in the same cartridge as the projectile. Issues I am not sure of are: How big would the cartridge have to be to push a 30 caliber bullet at lethal trajectory? and how thick would the air chamber have to be to hold that pressure?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




In my world, there is no access to modern or traditional gunpowder. I was wondering if a dedicated technician with a modern shop (cnc machines, and a surplus of parts and raw material, etc) would be able to develop a bullet the fires from compressed air that is in the same cartridge as the projectile. Issues I am not sure of are: How big would the cartridge have to be to push a 30 caliber bullet at lethal trajectory? and how thick would the air chamber have to be to hold that pressure?







technology physics near-future combat kinetic-weapons






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 9 hours ago









Cyn

12.3k12758




12.3k12758










asked 11 hours ago









AlexAlex

737




737








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    what is the difference between this and an air-rifle? Those can kill and it is easier to pump air into a big container than tiny cartridge
    $endgroup$
    – aaaaaa
    11 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You would never have to pump your gun if you left with enough bullets. I find that an air rifles biggest weakness is the limited amount of shots they can fire. So if there is a large fight where the mechanic I described has to fight more then ten enemies, he would be able to without having to retreat and pull out a bicycle pump to charge up.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Air rifles are usually charged by breaking and closing again. This bratty kid shows you how - youtu.be/AI2b5n4nkCg - Two or three pumps are usually more than enough. No bicycle equipment needed. Are your self-contained bullets loaded individually or is this an automatic weapon?
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    11 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    I am imagining full auto from a magazine type feeding system that uses the excess air from the cartridges the same way the gunpowder gases are used to cycle in modern powder guns.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    11 hours ago
















  • 1




    $begingroup$
    what is the difference between this and an air-rifle? Those can kill and it is easier to pump air into a big container than tiny cartridge
    $endgroup$
    – aaaaaa
    11 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You would never have to pump your gun if you left with enough bullets. I find that an air rifles biggest weakness is the limited amount of shots they can fire. So if there is a large fight where the mechanic I described has to fight more then ten enemies, he would be able to without having to retreat and pull out a bicycle pump to charge up.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Air rifles are usually charged by breaking and closing again. This bratty kid shows you how - youtu.be/AI2b5n4nkCg - Two or three pumps are usually more than enough. No bicycle equipment needed. Are your self-contained bullets loaded individually or is this an automatic weapon?
    $endgroup$
    – chasly from UK
    11 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    I am imagining full auto from a magazine type feeding system that uses the excess air from the cartridges the same way the gunpowder gases are used to cycle in modern powder guns.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    11 hours ago










1




1




$begingroup$
what is the difference between this and an air-rifle? Those can kill and it is easier to pump air into a big container than tiny cartridge
$endgroup$
– aaaaaa
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
what is the difference between this and an air-rifle? Those can kill and it is easier to pump air into a big container than tiny cartridge
$endgroup$
– aaaaaa
11 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
You would never have to pump your gun if you left with enough bullets. I find that an air rifles biggest weakness is the limited amount of shots they can fire. So if there is a large fight where the mechanic I described has to fight more then ten enemies, he would be able to without having to retreat and pull out a bicycle pump to charge up.
$endgroup$
– Alex
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
You would never have to pump your gun if you left with enough bullets. I find that an air rifles biggest weakness is the limited amount of shots they can fire. So if there is a large fight where the mechanic I described has to fight more then ten enemies, he would be able to without having to retreat and pull out a bicycle pump to charge up.
$endgroup$
– Alex
11 hours ago












$begingroup$
Air rifles are usually charged by breaking and closing again. This bratty kid shows you how - youtu.be/AI2b5n4nkCg - Two or three pumps are usually more than enough. No bicycle equipment needed. Are your self-contained bullets loaded individually or is this an automatic weapon?
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
11 hours ago






$begingroup$
Air rifles are usually charged by breaking and closing again. This bratty kid shows you how - youtu.be/AI2b5n4nkCg - Two or three pumps are usually more than enough. No bicycle equipment needed. Are your self-contained bullets loaded individually or is this an automatic weapon?
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
11 hours ago














$begingroup$
I am imagining full auto from a magazine type feeding system that uses the excess air from the cartridges the same way the gunpowder gases are used to cycle in modern powder guns.
$endgroup$
– Alex
11 hours ago






$begingroup$
I am imagining full auto from a magazine type feeding system that uses the excess air from the cartridges the same way the gunpowder gases are used to cycle in modern powder guns.
$endgroup$
– Alex
11 hours ago












3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















11












$begingroup$

Combining the projectile directly with the air chamber and a single use valve is possible, [and exact sizing would depend on materials and valve design] but it is vastly inferior to a bulk storage tank design that is separate from your projectiles:




  • Bulk tank storage means that you need 1-2 valves to fire potentially dozens of rounds at lethal velocities in place of at least one valve per shot.

  • Reduced valve count translates into reduced maintenance [and potentially increased safety]

  • Handling the independent projectiles does not introduce risks of damage or leaking charges.

  • Bulk storage allows option for consistent regulation and reduces the risk of shot-to-shot variance due to differences in cartridge pressures.


Consider the Girandoni air rifle - each cylinder allowed approximately 30 rounds to be fired, and the soldier was typically issued two spares. The accompanying [ball] ammunition occupies a very small and highly flexible volume - This translates into ease of carrying and handling.



Contrast this to the [non-lethal] options seen in paintball and the obscure 'goblin' shells that held one paintball and an air charge to fire it:
These proved unreliable, inconsistent, and took up far more space than a CO2 cartridge beside the paintballs that could be fired with one.
And the small 12 gram CO2 cartridges weigh more and take up more space than what could be achieved with a larger bulk tank.



For handling and ergonomics, a mixed Tank+Magazine design may be what you're really after - A single bulk tank with capacity to hold a charge for multiple rounds, and a magazine of ammunition that the tank can reliably fire.



[Answer can be improved with exact numbers by myself, or another member, if needed/someone gets around to crunching the numbers - Material options and exact bullet size/weight would need to be established for accurate figures.]






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I feel like there has to be some material that we have developed that would allow for high pressure air storage without being to bulky. The Girandoni has obviously proven its worth, but I can't help but think their must be a better way. A weakness I see is the reliance on a tank of air. even if you carry two a trip and fall might render that who supply worthless if the nozzle was to break, or a leak was able to form.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The Girandoni was rugged enough for Lewis and Clark on their mission of exploration. It was good enough to come under an attempted ban during the Napoleonic wars, because it had the accuracy and power to kill, but didn't give away its location with clouds of smoke -- and the guns stood up to the handling of soldiers in war, albeit an elite unit.
    $endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    10 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Alex I think this is your best bet. Imho, the answer to your original question is simply, no. No imho what your asking for would not be possible.
    $endgroup$
    – Rob
    10 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Alex you would be extremely hard pressed to approach the consistency and weight/volume efficiencies with a per-cartridge charge. You may get closest if you could make the projectile itself the tank, with a primitive burst disk 'valve', but then every round is a quality control nightmare and vastly more difficult to produce in bulk. - Any improvement you make with materials for the single use cartridge has More improvement in bulk storage.
    $endgroup$
    – TheLuckless
    10 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The rocket equation places strict limits on the mass ratio of any projectile powered by exhausting propellant. Space-going rockets are typically more than 85% propellant by mass, or 1% payload when you account for structural mass. An air gun wouldn't need to work nearly as hard against gravity, but compressed air (the other two parameters of the equation) is a pretty inefficient propellant compared to rocket fuels. Even if your bullets were 50% propellant by mass that's a significant loss of kinetic energy after even short flights. Hypergolic propellants might be a more believable solution.
    $endgroup$
    – Matthew Gauthier
    8 hours ago



















4












$begingroup$

The Brocock Air Cartridge System seems to fit your description. The cartridges are loaded with an airgun pellet and primed from a pump or diving tank. They are designed to resemble and function as close to real firearm cartridges as possible, rather than being designed for the kind of power you describe.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




William is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$





















    3












    $begingroup$

    I've actually designed (though not built) a cartridge that works like this. By my calculation, and by comparison to conventional precompressed air guns, I think a cartridge the size of a .30-06 round holding pressure similar to that used in PCP air guns should be able to propel a lightweight .30 caliber bullet (say, 100 grain or lighter) at close to the speed of sound, or a heavier bullet at somewhat slower velocity.



    This is adequate for hunting small game (squirrels, rabbits, etc.), or marginally adequate for self defense against unarmored assailants -- ballistically, it would be similar power to a .32 ACP handgun cartridge, possibly as good as a .32 H&R Magnum (the former fires an 88 grain bullet at slightly subsonic speed; the latter fires a 100 grain bullet at supersonic muzzle velocity). It would be "single shot" in a handgun, but in a rifle sized arm could be loaded from as magazine, as was done starting in the 1890s with powder weapons.



    This could be scaled up some -- a larger air capacity cartridge will give more velocity and/or propel a heavier bullet -- but there's a limit to how big it's practical to make your cartridges. If you need something like a .50 BMG cartridge to hold enough air to propel a 180 grain .35 bullet at Mach 1.5 (i.e. enough power to reliably kill deer at moderate range), the ammunition bulk is likely to limit how many rounds you can carry.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      If the projectiles are too bulky I could see possible use in a mounted weapon. There would be no need to move the gun, and the air would allow for less heat to affect the weapon.
      $endgroup$
      – Alex
      10 hours ago












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    3 Answers
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    active

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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    11












    $begingroup$

    Combining the projectile directly with the air chamber and a single use valve is possible, [and exact sizing would depend on materials and valve design] but it is vastly inferior to a bulk storage tank design that is separate from your projectiles:




    • Bulk tank storage means that you need 1-2 valves to fire potentially dozens of rounds at lethal velocities in place of at least one valve per shot.

    • Reduced valve count translates into reduced maintenance [and potentially increased safety]

    • Handling the independent projectiles does not introduce risks of damage or leaking charges.

    • Bulk storage allows option for consistent regulation and reduces the risk of shot-to-shot variance due to differences in cartridge pressures.


    Consider the Girandoni air rifle - each cylinder allowed approximately 30 rounds to be fired, and the soldier was typically issued two spares. The accompanying [ball] ammunition occupies a very small and highly flexible volume - This translates into ease of carrying and handling.



    Contrast this to the [non-lethal] options seen in paintball and the obscure 'goblin' shells that held one paintball and an air charge to fire it:
    These proved unreliable, inconsistent, and took up far more space than a CO2 cartridge beside the paintballs that could be fired with one.
    And the small 12 gram CO2 cartridges weigh more and take up more space than what could be achieved with a larger bulk tank.



    For handling and ergonomics, a mixed Tank+Magazine design may be what you're really after - A single bulk tank with capacity to hold a charge for multiple rounds, and a magazine of ammunition that the tank can reliably fire.



    [Answer can be improved with exact numbers by myself, or another member, if needed/someone gets around to crunching the numbers - Material options and exact bullet size/weight would need to be established for accurate figures.]






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      I feel like there has to be some material that we have developed that would allow for high pressure air storage without being to bulky. The Girandoni has obviously proven its worth, but I can't help but think their must be a better way. A weakness I see is the reliance on a tank of air. even if you carry two a trip and fall might render that who supply worthless if the nozzle was to break, or a leak was able to form.
      $endgroup$
      – Alex
      10 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The Girandoni was rugged enough for Lewis and Clark on their mission of exploration. It was good enough to come under an attempted ban during the Napoleonic wars, because it had the accuracy and power to kill, but didn't give away its location with clouds of smoke -- and the guns stood up to the handling of soldiers in war, albeit an elite unit.
      $endgroup$
      – Zeiss Ikon
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Alex I think this is your best bet. Imho, the answer to your original question is simply, no. No imho what your asking for would not be possible.
      $endgroup$
      – Rob
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Alex you would be extremely hard pressed to approach the consistency and weight/volume efficiencies with a per-cartridge charge. You may get closest if you could make the projectile itself the tank, with a primitive burst disk 'valve', but then every round is a quality control nightmare and vastly more difficult to produce in bulk. - Any improvement you make with materials for the single use cartridge has More improvement in bulk storage.
      $endgroup$
      – TheLuckless
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      The rocket equation places strict limits on the mass ratio of any projectile powered by exhausting propellant. Space-going rockets are typically more than 85% propellant by mass, or 1% payload when you account for structural mass. An air gun wouldn't need to work nearly as hard against gravity, but compressed air (the other two parameters of the equation) is a pretty inefficient propellant compared to rocket fuels. Even if your bullets were 50% propellant by mass that's a significant loss of kinetic energy after even short flights. Hypergolic propellants might be a more believable solution.
      $endgroup$
      – Matthew Gauthier
      8 hours ago
















    11












    $begingroup$

    Combining the projectile directly with the air chamber and a single use valve is possible, [and exact sizing would depend on materials and valve design] but it is vastly inferior to a bulk storage tank design that is separate from your projectiles:




    • Bulk tank storage means that you need 1-2 valves to fire potentially dozens of rounds at lethal velocities in place of at least one valve per shot.

    • Reduced valve count translates into reduced maintenance [and potentially increased safety]

    • Handling the independent projectiles does not introduce risks of damage or leaking charges.

    • Bulk storage allows option for consistent regulation and reduces the risk of shot-to-shot variance due to differences in cartridge pressures.


    Consider the Girandoni air rifle - each cylinder allowed approximately 30 rounds to be fired, and the soldier was typically issued two spares. The accompanying [ball] ammunition occupies a very small and highly flexible volume - This translates into ease of carrying and handling.



    Contrast this to the [non-lethal] options seen in paintball and the obscure 'goblin' shells that held one paintball and an air charge to fire it:
    These proved unreliable, inconsistent, and took up far more space than a CO2 cartridge beside the paintballs that could be fired with one.
    And the small 12 gram CO2 cartridges weigh more and take up more space than what could be achieved with a larger bulk tank.



    For handling and ergonomics, a mixed Tank+Magazine design may be what you're really after - A single bulk tank with capacity to hold a charge for multiple rounds, and a magazine of ammunition that the tank can reliably fire.



    [Answer can be improved with exact numbers by myself, or another member, if needed/someone gets around to crunching the numbers - Material options and exact bullet size/weight would need to be established for accurate figures.]






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      I feel like there has to be some material that we have developed that would allow for high pressure air storage without being to bulky. The Girandoni has obviously proven its worth, but I can't help but think their must be a better way. A weakness I see is the reliance on a tank of air. even if you carry two a trip and fall might render that who supply worthless if the nozzle was to break, or a leak was able to form.
      $endgroup$
      – Alex
      10 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The Girandoni was rugged enough for Lewis and Clark on their mission of exploration. It was good enough to come under an attempted ban during the Napoleonic wars, because it had the accuracy and power to kill, but didn't give away its location with clouds of smoke -- and the guns stood up to the handling of soldiers in war, albeit an elite unit.
      $endgroup$
      – Zeiss Ikon
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Alex I think this is your best bet. Imho, the answer to your original question is simply, no. No imho what your asking for would not be possible.
      $endgroup$
      – Rob
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Alex you would be extremely hard pressed to approach the consistency and weight/volume efficiencies with a per-cartridge charge. You may get closest if you could make the projectile itself the tank, with a primitive burst disk 'valve', but then every round is a quality control nightmare and vastly more difficult to produce in bulk. - Any improvement you make with materials for the single use cartridge has More improvement in bulk storage.
      $endgroup$
      – TheLuckless
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      The rocket equation places strict limits on the mass ratio of any projectile powered by exhausting propellant. Space-going rockets are typically more than 85% propellant by mass, or 1% payload when you account for structural mass. An air gun wouldn't need to work nearly as hard against gravity, but compressed air (the other two parameters of the equation) is a pretty inefficient propellant compared to rocket fuels. Even if your bullets were 50% propellant by mass that's a significant loss of kinetic energy after even short flights. Hypergolic propellants might be a more believable solution.
      $endgroup$
      – Matthew Gauthier
      8 hours ago














    11












    11








    11





    $begingroup$

    Combining the projectile directly with the air chamber and a single use valve is possible, [and exact sizing would depend on materials and valve design] but it is vastly inferior to a bulk storage tank design that is separate from your projectiles:




    • Bulk tank storage means that you need 1-2 valves to fire potentially dozens of rounds at lethal velocities in place of at least one valve per shot.

    • Reduced valve count translates into reduced maintenance [and potentially increased safety]

    • Handling the independent projectiles does not introduce risks of damage or leaking charges.

    • Bulk storage allows option for consistent regulation and reduces the risk of shot-to-shot variance due to differences in cartridge pressures.


    Consider the Girandoni air rifle - each cylinder allowed approximately 30 rounds to be fired, and the soldier was typically issued two spares. The accompanying [ball] ammunition occupies a very small and highly flexible volume - This translates into ease of carrying and handling.



    Contrast this to the [non-lethal] options seen in paintball and the obscure 'goblin' shells that held one paintball and an air charge to fire it:
    These proved unreliable, inconsistent, and took up far more space than a CO2 cartridge beside the paintballs that could be fired with one.
    And the small 12 gram CO2 cartridges weigh more and take up more space than what could be achieved with a larger bulk tank.



    For handling and ergonomics, a mixed Tank+Magazine design may be what you're really after - A single bulk tank with capacity to hold a charge for multiple rounds, and a magazine of ammunition that the tank can reliably fire.



    [Answer can be improved with exact numbers by myself, or another member, if needed/someone gets around to crunching the numbers - Material options and exact bullet size/weight would need to be established for accurate figures.]






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Combining the projectile directly with the air chamber and a single use valve is possible, [and exact sizing would depend on materials and valve design] but it is vastly inferior to a bulk storage tank design that is separate from your projectiles:




    • Bulk tank storage means that you need 1-2 valves to fire potentially dozens of rounds at lethal velocities in place of at least one valve per shot.

    • Reduced valve count translates into reduced maintenance [and potentially increased safety]

    • Handling the independent projectiles does not introduce risks of damage or leaking charges.

    • Bulk storage allows option for consistent regulation and reduces the risk of shot-to-shot variance due to differences in cartridge pressures.


    Consider the Girandoni air rifle - each cylinder allowed approximately 30 rounds to be fired, and the soldier was typically issued two spares. The accompanying [ball] ammunition occupies a very small and highly flexible volume - This translates into ease of carrying and handling.



    Contrast this to the [non-lethal] options seen in paintball and the obscure 'goblin' shells that held one paintball and an air charge to fire it:
    These proved unreliable, inconsistent, and took up far more space than a CO2 cartridge beside the paintballs that could be fired with one.
    And the small 12 gram CO2 cartridges weigh more and take up more space than what could be achieved with a larger bulk tank.



    For handling and ergonomics, a mixed Tank+Magazine design may be what you're really after - A single bulk tank with capacity to hold a charge for multiple rounds, and a magazine of ammunition that the tank can reliably fire.



    [Answer can be improved with exact numbers by myself, or another member, if needed/someone gets around to crunching the numbers - Material options and exact bullet size/weight would need to be established for accurate figures.]







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 10 hours ago

























    answered 11 hours ago









    TheLucklessTheLuckless

    1,228111




    1,228111












    • $begingroup$
      I feel like there has to be some material that we have developed that would allow for high pressure air storage without being to bulky. The Girandoni has obviously proven its worth, but I can't help but think their must be a better way. A weakness I see is the reliance on a tank of air. even if you carry two a trip and fall might render that who supply worthless if the nozzle was to break, or a leak was able to form.
      $endgroup$
      – Alex
      10 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The Girandoni was rugged enough for Lewis and Clark on their mission of exploration. It was good enough to come under an attempted ban during the Napoleonic wars, because it had the accuracy and power to kill, but didn't give away its location with clouds of smoke -- and the guns stood up to the handling of soldiers in war, albeit an elite unit.
      $endgroup$
      – Zeiss Ikon
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Alex I think this is your best bet. Imho, the answer to your original question is simply, no. No imho what your asking for would not be possible.
      $endgroup$
      – Rob
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Alex you would be extremely hard pressed to approach the consistency and weight/volume efficiencies with a per-cartridge charge. You may get closest if you could make the projectile itself the tank, with a primitive burst disk 'valve', but then every round is a quality control nightmare and vastly more difficult to produce in bulk. - Any improvement you make with materials for the single use cartridge has More improvement in bulk storage.
      $endgroup$
      – TheLuckless
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      The rocket equation places strict limits on the mass ratio of any projectile powered by exhausting propellant. Space-going rockets are typically more than 85% propellant by mass, or 1% payload when you account for structural mass. An air gun wouldn't need to work nearly as hard against gravity, but compressed air (the other two parameters of the equation) is a pretty inefficient propellant compared to rocket fuels. Even if your bullets were 50% propellant by mass that's a significant loss of kinetic energy after even short flights. Hypergolic propellants might be a more believable solution.
      $endgroup$
      – Matthew Gauthier
      8 hours ago


















    • $begingroup$
      I feel like there has to be some material that we have developed that would allow for high pressure air storage without being to bulky. The Girandoni has obviously proven its worth, but I can't help but think their must be a better way. A weakness I see is the reliance on a tank of air. even if you carry two a trip and fall might render that who supply worthless if the nozzle was to break, or a leak was able to form.
      $endgroup$
      – Alex
      10 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The Girandoni was rugged enough for Lewis and Clark on their mission of exploration. It was good enough to come under an attempted ban during the Napoleonic wars, because it had the accuracy and power to kill, but didn't give away its location with clouds of smoke -- and the guns stood up to the handling of soldiers in war, albeit an elite unit.
      $endgroup$
      – Zeiss Ikon
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Alex I think this is your best bet. Imho, the answer to your original question is simply, no. No imho what your asking for would not be possible.
      $endgroup$
      – Rob
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Alex you would be extremely hard pressed to approach the consistency and weight/volume efficiencies with a per-cartridge charge. You may get closest if you could make the projectile itself the tank, with a primitive burst disk 'valve', but then every round is a quality control nightmare and vastly more difficult to produce in bulk. - Any improvement you make with materials for the single use cartridge has More improvement in bulk storage.
      $endgroup$
      – TheLuckless
      10 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      The rocket equation places strict limits on the mass ratio of any projectile powered by exhausting propellant. Space-going rockets are typically more than 85% propellant by mass, or 1% payload when you account for structural mass. An air gun wouldn't need to work nearly as hard against gravity, but compressed air (the other two parameters of the equation) is a pretty inefficient propellant compared to rocket fuels. Even if your bullets were 50% propellant by mass that's a significant loss of kinetic energy after even short flights. Hypergolic propellants might be a more believable solution.
      $endgroup$
      – Matthew Gauthier
      8 hours ago
















    $begingroup$
    I feel like there has to be some material that we have developed that would allow for high pressure air storage without being to bulky. The Girandoni has obviously proven its worth, but I can't help but think their must be a better way. A weakness I see is the reliance on a tank of air. even if you carry two a trip and fall might render that who supply worthless if the nozzle was to break, or a leak was able to form.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    10 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    I feel like there has to be some material that we have developed that would allow for high pressure air storage without being to bulky. The Girandoni has obviously proven its worth, but I can't help but think their must be a better way. A weakness I see is the reliance on a tank of air. even if you carry two a trip and fall might render that who supply worthless if the nozzle was to break, or a leak was able to form.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex
    10 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    The Girandoni was rugged enough for Lewis and Clark on their mission of exploration. It was good enough to come under an attempted ban during the Napoleonic wars, because it had the accuracy and power to kill, but didn't give away its location with clouds of smoke -- and the guns stood up to the handling of soldiers in war, albeit an elite unit.
    $endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    10 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    The Girandoni was rugged enough for Lewis and Clark on their mission of exploration. It was good enough to come under an attempted ban during the Napoleonic wars, because it had the accuracy and power to kill, but didn't give away its location with clouds of smoke -- and the guns stood up to the handling of soldiers in war, albeit an elite unit.
    $endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    10 hours ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @Alex I think this is your best bet. Imho, the answer to your original question is simply, no. No imho what your asking for would not be possible.
    $endgroup$
    – Rob
    10 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @Alex I think this is your best bet. Imho, the answer to your original question is simply, no. No imho what your asking for would not be possible.
    $endgroup$
    – Rob
    10 hours ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @Alex you would be extremely hard pressed to approach the consistency and weight/volume efficiencies with a per-cartridge charge. You may get closest if you could make the projectile itself the tank, with a primitive burst disk 'valve', but then every round is a quality control nightmare and vastly more difficult to produce in bulk. - Any improvement you make with materials for the single use cartridge has More improvement in bulk storage.
    $endgroup$
    – TheLuckless
    10 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @Alex you would be extremely hard pressed to approach the consistency and weight/volume efficiencies with a per-cartridge charge. You may get closest if you could make the projectile itself the tank, with a primitive burst disk 'valve', but then every round is a quality control nightmare and vastly more difficult to produce in bulk. - Any improvement you make with materials for the single use cartridge has More improvement in bulk storage.
    $endgroup$
    – TheLuckless
    10 hours ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    The rocket equation places strict limits on the mass ratio of any projectile powered by exhausting propellant. Space-going rockets are typically more than 85% propellant by mass, or 1% payload when you account for structural mass. An air gun wouldn't need to work nearly as hard against gravity, but compressed air (the other two parameters of the equation) is a pretty inefficient propellant compared to rocket fuels. Even if your bullets were 50% propellant by mass that's a significant loss of kinetic energy after even short flights. Hypergolic propellants might be a more believable solution.
    $endgroup$
    – Matthew Gauthier
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    The rocket equation places strict limits on the mass ratio of any projectile powered by exhausting propellant. Space-going rockets are typically more than 85% propellant by mass, or 1% payload when you account for structural mass. An air gun wouldn't need to work nearly as hard against gravity, but compressed air (the other two parameters of the equation) is a pretty inefficient propellant compared to rocket fuels. Even if your bullets were 50% propellant by mass that's a significant loss of kinetic energy after even short flights. Hypergolic propellants might be a more believable solution.
    $endgroup$
    – Matthew Gauthier
    8 hours ago











    4












    $begingroup$

    The Brocock Air Cartridge System seems to fit your description. The cartridges are loaded with an airgun pellet and primed from a pump or diving tank. They are designed to resemble and function as close to real firearm cartridges as possible, rather than being designed for the kind of power you describe.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    William is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






    $endgroup$


















      4












      $begingroup$

      The Brocock Air Cartridge System seems to fit your description. The cartridges are loaded with an airgun pellet and primed from a pump or diving tank. They are designed to resemble and function as close to real firearm cartridges as possible, rather than being designed for the kind of power you describe.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      William is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      $endgroup$
















        4












        4








        4





        $begingroup$

        The Brocock Air Cartridge System seems to fit your description. The cartridges are loaded with an airgun pellet and primed from a pump or diving tank. They are designed to resemble and function as close to real firearm cartridges as possible, rather than being designed for the kind of power you describe.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        William is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        $endgroup$



        The Brocock Air Cartridge System seems to fit your description. The cartridges are loaded with an airgun pellet and primed from a pump or diving tank. They are designed to resemble and function as close to real firearm cartridges as possible, rather than being designed for the kind of power you describe.







        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        William is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer






        New contributor




        William is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        answered 8 hours ago









        WilliamWilliam

        411




        411




        New contributor




        William is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





        New contributor





        William is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        William is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.























            3












            $begingroup$

            I've actually designed (though not built) a cartridge that works like this. By my calculation, and by comparison to conventional precompressed air guns, I think a cartridge the size of a .30-06 round holding pressure similar to that used in PCP air guns should be able to propel a lightweight .30 caliber bullet (say, 100 grain or lighter) at close to the speed of sound, or a heavier bullet at somewhat slower velocity.



            This is adequate for hunting small game (squirrels, rabbits, etc.), or marginally adequate for self defense against unarmored assailants -- ballistically, it would be similar power to a .32 ACP handgun cartridge, possibly as good as a .32 H&R Magnum (the former fires an 88 grain bullet at slightly subsonic speed; the latter fires a 100 grain bullet at supersonic muzzle velocity). It would be "single shot" in a handgun, but in a rifle sized arm could be loaded from as magazine, as was done starting in the 1890s with powder weapons.



            This could be scaled up some -- a larger air capacity cartridge will give more velocity and/or propel a heavier bullet -- but there's a limit to how big it's practical to make your cartridges. If you need something like a .50 BMG cartridge to hold enough air to propel a 180 grain .35 bullet at Mach 1.5 (i.e. enough power to reliably kill deer at moderate range), the ammunition bulk is likely to limit how many rounds you can carry.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              If the projectiles are too bulky I could see possible use in a mounted weapon. There would be no need to move the gun, and the air would allow for less heat to affect the weapon.
              $endgroup$
              – Alex
              10 hours ago
















            3












            $begingroup$

            I've actually designed (though not built) a cartridge that works like this. By my calculation, and by comparison to conventional precompressed air guns, I think a cartridge the size of a .30-06 round holding pressure similar to that used in PCP air guns should be able to propel a lightweight .30 caliber bullet (say, 100 grain or lighter) at close to the speed of sound, or a heavier bullet at somewhat slower velocity.



            This is adequate for hunting small game (squirrels, rabbits, etc.), or marginally adequate for self defense against unarmored assailants -- ballistically, it would be similar power to a .32 ACP handgun cartridge, possibly as good as a .32 H&R Magnum (the former fires an 88 grain bullet at slightly subsonic speed; the latter fires a 100 grain bullet at supersonic muzzle velocity). It would be "single shot" in a handgun, but in a rifle sized arm could be loaded from as magazine, as was done starting in the 1890s with powder weapons.



            This could be scaled up some -- a larger air capacity cartridge will give more velocity and/or propel a heavier bullet -- but there's a limit to how big it's practical to make your cartridges. If you need something like a .50 BMG cartridge to hold enough air to propel a 180 grain .35 bullet at Mach 1.5 (i.e. enough power to reliably kill deer at moderate range), the ammunition bulk is likely to limit how many rounds you can carry.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              If the projectiles are too bulky I could see possible use in a mounted weapon. There would be no need to move the gun, and the air would allow for less heat to affect the weapon.
              $endgroup$
              – Alex
              10 hours ago














            3












            3








            3





            $begingroup$

            I've actually designed (though not built) a cartridge that works like this. By my calculation, and by comparison to conventional precompressed air guns, I think a cartridge the size of a .30-06 round holding pressure similar to that used in PCP air guns should be able to propel a lightweight .30 caliber bullet (say, 100 grain or lighter) at close to the speed of sound, or a heavier bullet at somewhat slower velocity.



            This is adequate for hunting small game (squirrels, rabbits, etc.), or marginally adequate for self defense against unarmored assailants -- ballistically, it would be similar power to a .32 ACP handgun cartridge, possibly as good as a .32 H&R Magnum (the former fires an 88 grain bullet at slightly subsonic speed; the latter fires a 100 grain bullet at supersonic muzzle velocity). It would be "single shot" in a handgun, but in a rifle sized arm could be loaded from as magazine, as was done starting in the 1890s with powder weapons.



            This could be scaled up some -- a larger air capacity cartridge will give more velocity and/or propel a heavier bullet -- but there's a limit to how big it's practical to make your cartridges. If you need something like a .50 BMG cartridge to hold enough air to propel a 180 grain .35 bullet at Mach 1.5 (i.e. enough power to reliably kill deer at moderate range), the ammunition bulk is likely to limit how many rounds you can carry.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            I've actually designed (though not built) a cartridge that works like this. By my calculation, and by comparison to conventional precompressed air guns, I think a cartridge the size of a .30-06 round holding pressure similar to that used in PCP air guns should be able to propel a lightweight .30 caliber bullet (say, 100 grain or lighter) at close to the speed of sound, or a heavier bullet at somewhat slower velocity.



            This is adequate for hunting small game (squirrels, rabbits, etc.), or marginally adequate for self defense against unarmored assailants -- ballistically, it would be similar power to a .32 ACP handgun cartridge, possibly as good as a .32 H&R Magnum (the former fires an 88 grain bullet at slightly subsonic speed; the latter fires a 100 grain bullet at supersonic muzzle velocity). It would be "single shot" in a handgun, but in a rifle sized arm could be loaded from as magazine, as was done starting in the 1890s with powder weapons.



            This could be scaled up some -- a larger air capacity cartridge will give more velocity and/or propel a heavier bullet -- but there's a limit to how big it's practical to make your cartridges. If you need something like a .50 BMG cartridge to hold enough air to propel a 180 grain .35 bullet at Mach 1.5 (i.e. enough power to reliably kill deer at moderate range), the ammunition bulk is likely to limit how many rounds you can carry.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 11 hours ago









            Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon

            2,614117




            2,614117












            • $begingroup$
              If the projectiles are too bulky I could see possible use in a mounted weapon. There would be no need to move the gun, and the air would allow for less heat to affect the weapon.
              $endgroup$
              – Alex
              10 hours ago


















            • $begingroup$
              If the projectiles are too bulky I could see possible use in a mounted weapon. There would be no need to move the gun, and the air would allow for less heat to affect the weapon.
              $endgroup$
              – Alex
              10 hours ago
















            $begingroup$
            If the projectiles are too bulky I could see possible use in a mounted weapon. There would be no need to move the gun, and the air would allow for less heat to affect the weapon.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex
            10 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            If the projectiles are too bulky I could see possible use in a mounted weapon. There would be no need to move the gun, and the air would allow for less heat to affect the weapon.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex
            10 hours ago


















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