In-universe, is there any reason Gandalf considered the number thirteen to be unlucky?Are there any female...
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In-universe, is there any reason Gandalf considered the number thirteen to be unlucky?
Are there any female characters in the Hobbit?Are there any phoenix like creatures in Tolkien's fantasy universe?Is there any particular reason why Gandalf got resurrected in the forest, and so did Sauron (Dol Goldur)?Is there any information on the (external) etymology of “Gandalf”?Are there any direct flashbacks in The Hobbit book?Are there any plans to novelize the Hobbit movies?Is there a reason the bees in The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug are so big?Was there a symbolic reason for Thorin losing his shield in The Hobbit, The Unexpected Journey?What material are weapons and armors in the Middle-earth forged from?Why is there so little concern for destroying the Ring?
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In the first chapter of The Hobbit, Gandalf says this about choosing a hobbit for the fourteenth member of the party:
“Of course there is a mark,” said Gandalf. “I put it there myself. For
very good reasons. You asked me to find the fourteenth man for your
expedition, and I chose Mr. Baggins. Just let any one say I chose the
wrong man or the wrong house, and you can stop at thirteen and have
all the bad luck you like, or go back to digging coal.”
Now, I know why thirteen is an unlucky number to somebody like Tolkien. But all of the reasons for that would have to do with real, Earth history, and to my knowledge none of it applies to Middle Earth.
Is there some in-universe reason Gandalf would consider thirteen to be inherently unlucky?
tolkiens-legendarium the-hobbit
asked 20 hours ago
GGMGGGMG
4,05432148
add a comment |
In the first chapter of The Hobbit, Gandalf says this about choosing a hobbit for the fourteenth member of the party:
“Of course there is a mark,” said Gandalf. “I put it there myself. For
very good reasons. You asked me to find the fourteenth man for your
expedition, and I chose Mr. Baggins. Just let any one say I chose the
wrong man or the wrong house, and you can stop at thirteen and have
all the bad luck you like, or go back to digging coal.”
Now, I know why thirteen is an unlucky number to somebody like Tolkien. But all of the reasons for that would have to do with real, Earth history, and to my knowledge none of it applies to Middle Earth.
Is there some in-universe reason Gandalf would consider thirteen to be inherently unlucky?
tolkiens-legendarium the-hobbit
asked 20 hours ago
GGMGGGMG
4,05432148
4
Did Gandalf really believe in unlucky numbers, or was he just kidding? Maybe he said it because the dwarves consider 13 to be unlucky?
– user14111
19 hours ago
add a comment |
In the first chapter of The Hobbit, Gandalf says this about choosing a hobbit for the fourteenth member of the party:
“Of course there is a mark,” said Gandalf. “I put it there myself. For
very good reasons. You asked me to find the fourteenth man for your
expedition, and I chose Mr. Baggins. Just let any one say I chose the
wrong man or the wrong house, and you can stop at thirteen and have
all the bad luck you like, or go back to digging coal.”
Now, I know why thirteen is an unlucky number to somebody like Tolkien. But all of the reasons for that would have to do with real, Earth history, and to my knowledge none of it applies to Middle Earth.
Is there some in-universe reason Gandalf would consider thirteen to be inherently unlucky?
tolkiens-legendarium the-hobbit
asked 20 hours ago
GGMGGGMG
4,05432148
In the first chapter of The Hobbit, Gandalf says this about choosing a hobbit for the fourteenth member of the party:
“Of course there is a mark,” said Gandalf. “I put it there myself. For
very good reasons. You asked me to find the fourteenth man for your
expedition, and I chose Mr. Baggins. Just let any one say I chose the
wrong man or the wrong house, and you can stop at thirteen and have
all the bad luck you like, or go back to digging coal.”
Now, I know why thirteen is an unlucky number to somebody like Tolkien. But all of the reasons for that would have to do with real, Earth history, and to my knowledge none of it applies to Middle Earth.
Is there some in-universe reason Gandalf would consider thirteen to be inherently unlucky?
tolkiens-legendarium the-hobbit
tolkiens-legendarium the-hobbit
asked 20 hours ago
GGMGGGMG
4,05432148
asked 20 hours ago
GGMGGGMG
4,05432148
asked 20 hours ago
GGMGGGMG
4,05432148
asked 20 hours ago
GGMGGGMG
4,05432148
asked 20 hours ago
GGMGGGMG
4,05432148
4,05432148
4
Did Gandalf really believe in unlucky numbers, or was he just kidding? Maybe he said it because the dwarves consider 13 to be unlucky?
– user14111
19 hours ago
add a comment |
4
Did Gandalf really believe in unlucky numbers, or was he just kidding? Maybe he said it because the dwarves consider 13 to be unlucky?
– user14111
19 hours ago
4
4
Did Gandalf really believe in unlucky numbers, or was he just kidding? Maybe he said it because the dwarves consider 13 to be unlucky?
– user14111
19 hours ago
Did Gandalf really believe in unlucky numbers, or was he just kidding? Maybe he said it because the dwarves consider 13 to be unlucky?
– user14111
19 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
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I suspect that Tolkien was simply applying our universe's aversion for the number thirteen to his fictional universe.
However, The Letters of JRR Tolkien give a couple of examples of thirteen being less than auspicious. As they both occur earlier than The Hobbit, I think they can be considered in-universe explanations.
When Aulë secretly creates the first dwarves, he creates thirteen before Ilúvatar stops him.
Aulë, for instance, one of the Great, in a sense 'fell'; for he so desired to see the Children, that he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator. Being the greatest of all craftsmen he tried to make children according to his imperfect knowledge of their kind. When he had made thirteen, God spoke to him in anger, but not without pity : for Aulë had done this thing not out of evil desire to have slaves and subjects of his own, but out of impatient love, desiring children to talk to and teach, sharing with them the praise of Ilúvatar and his great love of the materials of which the world is made.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Letter 212
Ar-Pharazôn, the King of Númenor who rebelled and attacked Valinor resulting in the destruction of Númenor, was originally the thirteenth King.
Tar-Calion (the Quenya name for Ar-Pharazôn) was originally the thirteenth ruler of Numenor; in later developments of the history of Númenor he became the twenty-fifth.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Note 131
I understand that these are somewhat tenuous connections. However, I suspect that if we had asked Tolkien why the number thirteen was considered unlucky in Middle-earth, he would have used similar logic to come up with an answer.
answered 19 hours ago
BlackwoodBlackwood
14.9k56379
add a comment |
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I suspect that Tolkien was simply applying our universe's aversion for the number thirteen to his fictional universe.
However, The Letters of JRR Tolkien give a couple of examples of thirteen being less than auspicious. As they both occur earlier than The Hobbit, I think they can be considered in-universe explanations.
When Aulë secretly creates the first dwarves, he creates thirteen before Ilúvatar stops him.
Aulë, for instance, one of the Great, in a sense 'fell'; for he so desired to see the Children, that he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator. Being the greatest of all craftsmen he tried to make children according to his imperfect knowledge of their kind. When he had made thirteen, God spoke to him in anger, but not without pity : for Aulë had done this thing not out of evil desire to have slaves and subjects of his own, but out of impatient love, desiring children to talk to and teach, sharing with them the praise of Ilúvatar and his great love of the materials of which the world is made.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Letter 212
Ar-Pharazôn, the King of Númenor who rebelled and attacked Valinor resulting in the destruction of Númenor, was originally the thirteenth King.
Tar-Calion (the Quenya name for Ar-Pharazôn) was originally the thirteenth ruler of Numenor; in later developments of the history of Númenor he became the twenty-fifth.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Note 131
I understand that these are somewhat tenuous connections. However, I suspect that if we had asked Tolkien why the number thirteen was considered unlucky in Middle-earth, he would have used similar logic to come up with an answer.
answered 19 hours ago
BlackwoodBlackwood
14.9k56379
add a comment |
I suspect that Tolkien was simply applying our universe's aversion for the number thirteen to his fictional universe.
However, The Letters of JRR Tolkien give a couple of examples of thirteen being less than auspicious. As they both occur earlier than The Hobbit, I think they can be considered in-universe explanations.
When Aulë secretly creates the first dwarves, he creates thirteen before Ilúvatar stops him.
Aulë, for instance, one of the Great, in a sense 'fell'; for he so desired to see the Children, that he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator. Being the greatest of all craftsmen he tried to make children according to his imperfect knowledge of their kind. When he had made thirteen, God spoke to him in anger, but not without pity : for Aulë had done this thing not out of evil desire to have slaves and subjects of his own, but out of impatient love, desiring children to talk to and teach, sharing with them the praise of Ilúvatar and his great love of the materials of which the world is made.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Letter 212
Ar-Pharazôn, the King of Númenor who rebelled and attacked Valinor resulting in the destruction of Númenor, was originally the thirteenth King.
Tar-Calion (the Quenya name for Ar-Pharazôn) was originally the thirteenth ruler of Numenor; in later developments of the history of Númenor he became the twenty-fifth.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Note 131
I understand that these are somewhat tenuous connections. However, I suspect that if we had asked Tolkien why the number thirteen was considered unlucky in Middle-earth, he would have used similar logic to come up with an answer.
answered 19 hours ago
BlackwoodBlackwood
14.9k56379
add a comment |
I suspect that Tolkien was simply applying our universe's aversion for the number thirteen to his fictional universe.
However, The Letters of JRR Tolkien give a couple of examples of thirteen being less than auspicious. As they both occur earlier than The Hobbit, I think they can be considered in-universe explanations.
When Aulë secretly creates the first dwarves, he creates thirteen before Ilúvatar stops him.
Aulë, for instance, one of the Great, in a sense 'fell'; for he so desired to see the Children, that he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator. Being the greatest of all craftsmen he tried to make children according to his imperfect knowledge of their kind. When he had made thirteen, God spoke to him in anger, but not without pity : for Aulë had done this thing not out of evil desire to have slaves and subjects of his own, but out of impatient love, desiring children to talk to and teach, sharing with them the praise of Ilúvatar and his great love of the materials of which the world is made.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Letter 212
Ar-Pharazôn, the King of Númenor who rebelled and attacked Valinor resulting in the destruction of Númenor, was originally the thirteenth King.
Tar-Calion (the Quenya name for Ar-Pharazôn) was originally the thirteenth ruler of Numenor; in later developments of the history of Númenor he became the twenty-fifth.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Note 131
I understand that these are somewhat tenuous connections. However, I suspect that if we had asked Tolkien why the number thirteen was considered unlucky in Middle-earth, he would have used similar logic to come up with an answer.
answered 19 hours ago
BlackwoodBlackwood
14.9k56379
I suspect that Tolkien was simply applying our universe's aversion for the number thirteen to his fictional universe.
However, The Letters of JRR Tolkien give a couple of examples of thirteen being less than auspicious. As they both occur earlier than The Hobbit, I think they can be considered in-universe explanations.
When Aulë secretly creates the first dwarves, he creates thirteen before Ilúvatar stops him.
Aulë, for instance, one of the Great, in a sense 'fell'; for he so desired to see the Children, that he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator. Being the greatest of all craftsmen he tried to make children according to his imperfect knowledge of their kind. When he had made thirteen, God spoke to him in anger, but not without pity : for Aulë had done this thing not out of evil desire to have slaves and subjects of his own, but out of impatient love, desiring children to talk to and teach, sharing with them the praise of Ilúvatar and his great love of the materials of which the world is made.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Letter 212
Ar-Pharazôn, the King of Númenor who rebelled and attacked Valinor resulting in the destruction of Númenor, was originally the thirteenth King.
Tar-Calion (the Quenya name for Ar-Pharazôn) was originally the thirteenth ruler of Numenor; in later developments of the history of Númenor he became the twenty-fifth.
The Letters of JRR Tolkien Note 131
I understand that these are somewhat tenuous connections. However, I suspect that if we had asked Tolkien why the number thirteen was considered unlucky in Middle-earth, he would have used similar logic to come up with an answer.
answered 19 hours ago
BlackwoodBlackwood
14.9k56379
answered 19 hours ago
BlackwoodBlackwood
14.9k56379
answered 19 hours ago
BlackwoodBlackwood
14.9k56379
answered 19 hours ago
BlackwoodBlackwood
14.9k56379
14.9k56379
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Did Gandalf really believe in unlucky numbers, or was he just kidding? Maybe he said it because the dwarves consider 13 to be unlucky?
– user14111
19 hours ago